Highest supported MathML version?

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Highest supported MathML version?

Postby Daiwe01 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:54 pm

What is the latest spec of MathML supported by AOO 3.4.1?
Will AOO 4.0 conform to the latest & greatest version?

(I'm limited to a dialup link at the moment, and searching the 'net is almost painful :( )
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby acknak » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:54 pm

Here's the namespace declaration from an ODF formula file:
<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML">

Note that just because OOo re-uses the namespace, that doesn't necessarily mean that OOo uses or generates MathML standard formulas.
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby Daiwe01 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:11 pm

acknak wrote:... namespace declaration ... <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"> ...
That namespace works for all versions of MathML, i.e., 1.0, 1.01, 2.0 & 3.0.
The namespace was assigned in Apr 1998 with MathML V1.0.
MathML V1.01 was released in Jul 1999; V 2.0 came out in Feb 2001 and V 3.0 was released in Oct 2010.
I am just wondering which spec AOO is using for coding. (And it would be nice to know how well they comply).
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby acknak » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:47 am

Oops--sorry! I thought that would identify a version; I obviously didn't look at it very closely.

I'm not at all sure about this, but my guess is that OOo doesn't use or produce compatible xml. I remember once trying to view the xml in Firefox with MathML support and the formula sort of worked--parts of it were recognizable--but it wasn't close to being usable.

OOo (ODF, that is) uses quite a number of standard namespaces, but to my knowledge it doesn't implement any of the standards to any practical extent.
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby Daiwe01 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:24 am

:shock: AOO 3.4.1 imports and writes MathML 1.01 :ucrazy:

As I noted above, MathML 1.01 was released in July 1999

Perhaps an Apache Observer will suggest that the code, at least for Import, be rewritten to use the specification from at least February 2001, i.e., MathML 2.0.
MathML 3.0 is a minor extension to 2.0, so perhaps they might even move within the same decade. :crazy:

I can code to create MathML code. I want something less than TeX and LaTeX or Scribus for computer-challenged clients.
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby acknak » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:41 am

If you want to get some substantive discussion over this, or communicate a specific suggestion, you'll need to use the project email list. There are few developers here and all decisions are discussed on the mailing list.
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby Daiwe01 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:12 pm

Executive Summary: Two of the 50 AOO MathML requests (Bugs 10284 & 13657) are linked below - please consider voting on these 10-year-old requests.
acknak wrote:If you want to get some substantive discussion over this, or communicate a specific suggestion, you'll need to use the project email list. There are few developers here and all decisions are discussed on the mailing list.
ODF uses the MathML standard and Apache OpenOffice touts its support of ODF. But is Apache OpenOffice even compatible with MathML (ignore conform for the moment)?

Rob Weir, an Apache Observer on this forum, is a self-proclaimed "standards geek". (http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/10/odf ... ients.html)
Restricting a search to only the MathML standard, using "Rob Weir MathML" as Google input yields thousands of results.

But is Rob Weir a standards evangelist or REMF politician?
Math You Can’t Use, August 6, 2006 (http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/08/mat ... t-use.html)
"... MathML, a web standard for displaying mathematical equations. I will show how well established it is on the web, how it is integrated into ODF ..."
"... MathML was the only logical choice for us to use to support equations in OpenDocument Format (ODF). ..."
"... But the choice of MathML is more than just a fashion statement. It has practical significance and enables opportunities for innovative workflows around mathematical document production. ..."

A Demo: Mathematica, MathML and ODF, August 20, 2006 (http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/08/dem ... d-odf.html)
"... strictly speaking the ODF specification allows MathML 2.0, including the non-marking characters. ..."
"... Let’s demonstrate the value of open standards working together."

ODF Ingredients, October 5, 2010 (http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/10/odf ... ients.html)
"... we standards geeks ...
... ODF is very much built on top of web and internet standards from the W3C and IETF. ...""


The OpenOffice MathML issue has been acknowledged and avoided for over ten (10) years
Using MathML as input to Apache OOo Bugzilla Quick Search finds 50 bugs. (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/buglist.c ... rch=mathml)

23 December 2002 Version: OOo 1.0.0 Bug 10284 (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=10284)
"... A request to support MathML 2.0 for import/export ..."
"... this would be a load of work, there are loads of features in mathml2.0 which are not supported by our starmath at all, and some which are likely not to map well to the new mathml 2.0 without a lot of effort on our side. ..."

20 April 2003 Version: OOo 1.0.3 Bug 13657 (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=13657)
"... Since OpenOffice.org is working as to be XML compliant, MathML should be rendered correctly. ..."
"We tried to support MathML 1.01. We would really need a new MathML 2.0 filter. Theres a good deal of work in this, not least that the formula editor itself would have to be enhanced to handle the various features of MathML that it currently cannot."

OK, unless things have changed since 2003, AOO will have to rewrite the formula editor and perhaps the formula interface with OpenOffice XML code. If it was easy, even the REMFs could do it.
Perhaps the IBM code has addressed some of the problem. Perhaps Apache will redirect some of the effort demonstrated by their rewriting OpenOffice code to "Apache standards".

So are ODF standards just corporate politispeak while efforts are concentrated on playing "us too" mimicking Microsoft Office?

Those who support standards-based software might consider voting for at least the two bugs linked above.
Last edited by Daiwe01 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby RGB » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 am

Rob Weir, as co-chair of the OASIS ODF Technical Committee is one of those guys who actually wrote the standard, so accusing him of being a "politician" is not fair, I think...

Apache OpenOffice is a volunteer driven project, and as such it evolves if volunteers work on it. Sadly, there are not many volunteers working on Math now so this component is the less evolved on the whole suite. As noted on one of the quotes on your last message, supporting MathML 2 will need a good deal of work: if you know a free software developer interested on working on Math, he/she will be warmly received by the project.
There are two types of people: those who believe that there are two types of people and those who do not.

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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby Daiwe01 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:02 am

As I posted earlier, the formula editor rewrite will apparently require a collaborative effort involving the XML code.
The following bug also indicates the same interaction:
8 April 2006 Version: OOo 2.0.2 Bug 64141 (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=64141)
"... Full MathMl 2.0 supoprt entails a lot of work , and can be expected to be a rather middle to long term goal. The trouble with current state of affairs is that if one writes an ODF compliant mathMl object ( by eg directly editing the XML file) OOO will wipe it clean on load/save.
This destructive behaviour is rather problematic..."

So, in my opinion, the effort shall require a champion -- perhaps an ODF Architect at IBM’s Collaboration Solutions division.
If I recall correctly (and I do not have the reference for this recollection), IBM is also assigning programmers to assist integrating their donated code with the code donated by Oracle.
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Re: Highest supported MathML version?

Postby Daiwe01 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:33 am

:bravo: Thanks to Rob Weir for changing a bug listed in a post above. :super: Bug 10284 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=10284
Changed Difficulty From "---" To "moderate"
Changed Severity From "trivial" To "normal"
:!: Now if we could get some votes for the bug and a discussion going ... :!:
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