Formatting Woes (Illogical results)

[wtree]

Hi, Could someone help, please?

I am running OOO 3.0 on Win XP (SP3)

I have a wp document which I format, then save. But on re-opening the document loses particular formatting. I have tried this with various documents and having booted the pc between sessions, as well as immediate save, open.

Specifically, I am trying to format a wp document with paragraphs justified in two ways. However, all are:

Verderna, 10pt, default, non-indented.

Some are:

left justified, default colour, no indent

Others are:

double-justified, non-default colour, left indent 2cm - right indent 1 cm

This seems to happen if saving in RTF (the format I usually use) or OOO's ODT.

This is not just a matter of aesthetics; I am required to submit some work in particular formats.

NB I have no problem executing these formats and all looks perfect. The problem is that, on re-loading, most (though not all) of the formatting disappears - leaving some formatting as required and other defaulting. I have tried including and excluding end paragraph and intermediate paragraph markers but no logical result seems to appear.

Thanks in anticipation. Appreciated.

[Villeroy]

As far as I know, RTF is hardly supported by OOo since it is an ambiguous pseudo-standard with too many pitfalls.

This seems to happen if saving in RTF (the format I usually use) or OOO's ODT.

This should never happen with ODT.
Always work with ODF (odt, ods, odp). It is an acknowleged industry standard for complex office documents and free by any means.
Convert to PDF when distributing to readers.
Convert copies of your ODF to other document formats only for collaboration with co-editors that refuse to install ODF capable software.
AbiWord has a better support for RTF while supporting ODF as well.
Next service pack for MSOffice 2007 is reported to add ODF support.

ODF is not "yet-another-application-bound-file-format":
OASIS Open Document informations

[wtree]

Hi Villeroy, Thanks very much for your kind reply.

>VR> As far as I know, RTF is hardly supported by OOo since it is an ambiguous pseudo-standard with too many pitfalls.

RTF has been around for a long time, pre-dating OOO (and MS Word) and will post date OOO (and MS Word) I guess, so for archiving purposes it is ideal. So it is a real shame it is not supported.

>VR> This should never happen with ODT.

Perhaps not - but it always does.

>VR> Always work with ODF (odt, ods, odp). It is an acknowledged industry standard for complex office documents and free by any means.

Again, all my work is saved in RTF - and has been for decades (since it came out in the late 1980s).

>VR> Convert to PDF when distributing to readers.

I cannot convert to PDFs, as I am required to submit work in either MS Word or RTF formats. No other formats are acceptable.

>VR> Convert copies of your ODF to other document formats only for collaboration with co-editors that refuse to install ODF capable software.

I am the only person I know using OOO. The others use old versions of MS Word.

>VR> AbiWord has a better support for RTF while supporting ODF as well.

Abiword never heard of - but will investigate. Thank you.

>VR> Next service pack for MSOffice 2007 is reported to add ODF support.

OK thanks - that may be a way for others to read my documents but it does not give me proper archiving. But it may be very useful. Thanks.

>VR> ODF is not "yet-another-application-bound-file-format":
OASIS Open Document informations[/quote]

No but it is time-limited, is it not? Just as MS Word .doc is.

Thanks muchly. Appreciated. Off to see what Abiword is.

[mgagnonlv]

I don't have much experience with the RTF format but I have more with the MsWord format. In the few trials I have done, I found that exporting complex documents to MsWord is better than exporting them to RTF. By "better", I mean that when I open the exported document in MsWord (2003 version), it looks similar to the original .odt document in OpenOffice.
The only exception I found is when I import the document into InDesign (page layout software): RTF seems better.

However, the more you convert a document, the messier it comes. So I would recommend that you keep your original document in the original OpenOffice format (.odt) and "save as" the final copies you hand out. There is even an extension that automatically saves a file in two formats.

P.S. I haven,t tested AbiWord, but the same principle should apply with it too: work in the native format and export final copies.

[Hagar Delest]

[ODF] is time-limited, is it not? Just as MS Word .doc is.

Why should it? ODF is an ISO standard so:
- No time limit
- Cannot be bound to an application.
NB: ODF 1.1 is ISO, not yet ODF 1.2 but it's the target of the OASIS to improve step by step the format so that it can be used as an industry standard safely. MS Office is supposed to support ODF in next version BTW.

There so many versions of RTF that it might be the reason why the support is very poor.

To avoid illogical results, paste as unformatted text the content of your RTF file and save as ODF, it will remove any formatting that could confuse OOo. Export a copy as RTF only when needed.

[ronsan]

I had many of these same problems, today, trying to save a document to rtf. It was a very basic doc with some formatting, but nothing sophisticated. Saving to rtf ripped out everything: No paragraph breaks; no line breaks; no centering in the one place I had it. It was just a mess.

My solution? I think someone in this thread mentioned. I d/l'ed Abiword, opened my odt doc in that, and saved it out to rtf. Looks great. FYI, I've had this problem with Word in the past, too. I suspect rtf is just a skeezy format.

[wtree]

Thank you to everyone.

I, too, have downloaded Abiword and it works fine.

I appreciate what is said about ODF being time unlimited - I hope you are right and it does give future-proofing more credence. I suppose I have been using .TXT and .RTF files so long now, I almost trust those.

This has been very useful and I really appreciate all the help.

I shall keep my eyes open and, if I can help anyone will post.

Appreciated.

WT.

[Villeroy]

>VR> ODF is not "yet-another-application-bound-file-format":
OASIS Open Document informations

No but it is time-limited, is it not? Just as MS Word .doc is.

Thanks muchly. Appreciated. Off to see what Abiword is.

Well, yes it evolves slowly from version to version with backward compatibility in mind. Unlike the sabotage format OOXML by Microsoft, this format tries to describe office documents rather than one particular vendor's implementation of office documents.
Open any ODF with your favourite zip-tool. What you see as document content embedded in the zip-archive is plain XML and embedded graphics in the jpeg format. Stripping all text content from content.xml is trivial. As long as the zip-algorithm and ASCII encoding are well known, you will always get the contents at least.

[bo-bo]

Hi gurus!

I have same problem.
I'm writing short simple documents with simple formatting including line indents and user tabs in Times New Roman. These are meeting notes that must be distributed to the meeting attendants having various systems, pc-experience and age so it has to be a simple document.
I export it to the rtf format so everyone are able to read it.

When I save my document as rtf and then re-open it, the formatting is inconsistent and far from what I expect.
The only way I found to work somehow, at least on my own screen, is to use the old tab and space to adjust lines and short lists. This old-fashion formatting from the DOS-times follows the document when saved and re-read.
Next problem comes when someone tries to print the document, but that is not related to the word processor, that is related to what I see on the screen is NOT what I get from the printer unless I use Courier and avoid tabs.

Thanks for a good and cheap MS-free office tool that even laid-offs and retired people can afford.
Bo in Finland

[pingju]

Why you did not export it as PDF to distribute to your readers?
1. The PDF file does not change format on different machines / OS.
2. every one (?) has experience in reading PDF files.
3. What you see in a PDF file should be the same as it is printed on paper.

OOo has the built-in function to export a document as PDF.

[RoryOF]

As pingju says, .Pdf is the way to go for distribution of minutes, also for distribution to the less computer able and/or differing operating systems.

[bo-bo]

Thank's pingju,

I can try to suggest this in our next meeting.

My problem is that the meetings chairman normally want's to correct/edit my document before distributing and the distribution is normally to 50-100 members.
I'm not sure pdf allows that he can edit the document. pdf as I know it is only for reading unless you buy an expensive license (I could be wrong here).

However, the basic problem as I see it is that Writer has different ways of saving to rtf and reading from it.
If this would be consistent, no problems.
Maybe save to rtf could issue some warning/help-notes for how to write for consistency.

Thanks again,
Bo in Finland

[Hagar Delest]

Thanks for a good and cheap MS-free office tool that even laid-offs and retired people can afford.

Note that OOo is completely free.

PDF cannot be edited indeed. Can't the chairman install OOo as it is free (and can run in parallel with any other office application?

[TheGurkha]

What are the other users opening the rtf document in?

If they are using MS Office you could try saving in .doc, that might get you better results.

[bo-bo]

Hi moderators,

That's the problem, I don't know what kind of setup they all have.
During my last almost two years with Open Office I've had 8 different chairmen, two regular and six pro tempore. Two I know use MS Office and one use Open Office. They are all very capable as chairmen and they all have different opinion about the meeting minutes, but if I talk about installing something ... Well forget it.
Earlier I used MS Office (company license on a laptop) and I had not such trivial formatting problems. I saved in rtf as was agreed and everyone was happy.
The document looked as I thought it should and the file size was small for sending via email to small/almost full member mailboxes.
Well, I lost the job and the laptop and had to buy an other so I had to look for alternatives like Open Office.
Microsoft makes many good software but their appetite for money is larger than my wallet.
OK, I know the workaround with Writer and rtf as I wrote earlier so I guess I can live with that.
After downloading the latest version, I realized it had the same feature so I just wanted to tell that some of us find it useful with the rtf format and would like to have it behaving more predictable, sort of.
Sorry for the long story and thanks for all your well meant advices.

All the best,
Bo in Finland

[privateofcourse]

Sorry to bump this older thread, but I am having the same woes with OOo and RTF!

I am doing an OU course and all work has to be submitted in RTF format with specific formatting (12pt font, double spacing, etc.). Each time I get the returned document from my tutor the RTF file has some paragraphs entirely capitalised, for which I am receiving negative comments (tutor obviously believes I'd be that stupid for some reason). Anyhow, I didn't, and wouldn't capitalise paragraphs in essays, so something is amiss.

Also noticed that the formatting does not always 'stick' when creating documents in RTF format in OOo. For example, apply double spacing to all paragraphs, save the document, reopen the document, and some paragraphs have mysteriously lost the double spacing.

I'd really like to know whether:

* RTF is broken in OOo
* RTF files created in OOo can't be exchanged with others using different word processors (e.g Word 2007, Abiword, etc.)

This has really become a bug bear. I really, really, really don't want to have to install Word 2007 just to be able to use a basic file format such as RTF. I'd much prefer to use another format myself, but my courses require RTF. This is the case for a lot of others.

Thanks,

Simon

[Villeroy]

Even the WordPad application that used to be shipped with Windows can edit RTF. This one is even better: http://abiword.org

[privateofcourse]

Thanks, but you can't set headers and footers in WP as far as I'm aware. And I don't recall it having any page numbering features either, or paragraph and page indentation settings. It is primitive. Works 'okay' as an RTF viewer however.

I'm not intending on producing plain text documents. There are conventions that I have to follow, and Wordpad doesn't fit the bill. I'm aware of Abiword, having recommended it to others who don't want a full office suite like OOo, but I was hoping to avoid having to install another Word Processor just to create RTF files properly, but it looks like I have no choice really.

I do believe MS office fully supports the RTF format (well they created it after all), and as I have a full (UK adult student discounted) version of Office 2007 stashed in a rar file somewhere I may just dig it out and reinstall it and try and get used to that wretched ribbon interface (the reason I uninstalled it in the first place).

As I'll need to be creating documents in RTF format for a few years to come, I may as well make a decision to use software that supports it fully.

Thanks for your advice.

[Villeroy]

Abandon RTF. ODF is the acknowleged ISO standard for office documents. ODF provides almost the same features as *doc in plain XML, it's free by any means, fully documented, supported by a wide variety of applications.

[privateofcourse]

God, I wish it was that easy

I use ODF for everything else, and I wish more apps supported it already. However, the RTF format isn't anything to do with personal choice, it's a stipulation by the OU.Institutions like the OU dictate which file formats work has to be submitted in. If I believed that I could convince the Open University to see the error of their ways all by myself, I'd give it a go. But I'm not that deluded...well, maybe a little bit, but not that much

[RoryOF]

I'm thinking back over ten years, so it is a hazy recollection. I seem to remember that one could rename a .doc to .rtf and contrariwise without MS Word caring or commenting when it was asked to open that file. Try it - you might be able to save the file as .doc then rename it as .rtf and get away with it!

[privateofcourse]

Opened my latest work in OOo (created in OOo and in RTF format - it has headers, footers, page count, 4cm left margins, etc.). Saved it out as a Word document. Renamed the new .doc file to .rtf as you suggested. The file opens in Word Pad, complete with layout..so Word Pad is obviously recognising it as a .doc file. It opens in OOo Writer 3.1 correctly displayed, as OOo is obviously recognising it as a .doc file as well, and also opens and displays correctly in Word 2007, except there's a slight oddity with the right-hand justified page counter in the footer. Other than that it looks okay.

Of course it's just a bit of a con, as the rtf extension is simply hiding a doc file. The extension is being ignored. It's a solution, unless the OU's electronic submission service is able to detect it as not being an rtf, which I doubt. And I doubt whether the tutors would be aware of the difference if it opened normally. Document alterations in either Word 2007 or OOo Writer don't affect the file's formatting at all, so you may very well have come up with a work around...even if it isn't actually anything to do with RTF.

If you rename an .rtf file as a doc, Word 2007 still recognises the file as an RTF file (prompts you) and still totally borks the formatting.

Thanks.

[RoryOF]

We won't say anything if you don't and it wasn't me that told you - I'll deny it!

[privateofcourse]

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