Oracle moves OOo to "Community-based Project"

[RGB]

A good to read article:
What’s in a name?

But what about the folks at The Document Foundation? they have invested huge amounts of time and energy in establishing their new baby. It would not be easy to get back into bed with Oracle and IBM, as their initial response suggests. But maybe it’s time to set aside history, set aside the personality issues on all sides, take a deep breath, and decide which route is most likely to create great software that can continue to challenge Microsoft on the desktops of the world.

Fully agree with that.

[vea1083]

Maybe the TDF and the ASF can work out some licensing issues which would either result in the following two scenarios (speculation, not based on any facts or reports just my thought):

1) Bring back OOo and LibO together into a single code under the OOo branding, enabling OOo users to enjoy some of the new features introduced in LibreOffice.

2) Allow the TDF to contribute to the OOo code in terms of security, stability, and features but remaining as a separate LibO and OOo project respectively. My take on this one is that is highly unlikely, usually the market can't support two suites with almost the same features.

Reading upon yesterday's TDF statements on OOo going to ASF, although they can be upset on Oracle not giving them the code neither the branding, they still left the door open to continue contributions into the OOo code in the future providing that licencing issues are worked out.

[henke54]

However, as IBM's Rob Weir notes, OpenOffice.org needs to demonstrate diversity to graduate from the Incubator. So too much IBM and/or Oracle influence won't help OO.org make it as a main project.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/74565

[vea1083]

The following is a post from Rob Weir at IBM:

http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/apa ... ffice.html

The TDF Chairman also commented in the post...

EDIT: text was removed on copyright backgrounds.

[aqualung]

Mike, there is no need to breathlessly repost seven paragraphs of text here (incidentally, this violates copyright), just give the link (which may include a short excerpt) and add any comment that you want to make.

[henke54]

The following is a post from Rob Weir at IBM:

http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/apa ... ffice.html

hmmm...when i read those comments on that article, i suddenly 'imagine' some 'laughing out loud' in 'a Redmond place'...

[vea1083]

The following is a post from Rob Weir at IBM:

http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/apa ... ffice.html

hmmm...when i read those comments on that article, i suddenly 'imagine' some 'laughing out loud' in 'a Redmond place'...

I think that was Steve Ballmer...

[RoryOF]

http://www.itworld.com/software/170521/ ... nofficeorg

[r4zoli]

I asked Rob on his personal page post An Invitation to Apache OpenOffice :

Rob,
You not mentioned what could happen with the ongoing user support forums, now sitting on Oracle sponsored servers. As a Hungarian forum admin I manage this forum more than a three year. You see any possibilities to continue this work, similar way, somebody give a server and bandwidth. or we needs fast solution to organize it.
The user forums is good place to get user views and pick bugs in OpenOffice.
I don’t know how Apache works on these type not development efforts.
What will happen with OOo wiki page etc. and other documentation efforts.
Zoltan

Today I get positive answer on posts:

@Zoltan, we’re discussing this topic at Apache. Oracle will give Apache the domain name for openoffice.org. The plan is to preserve all active projects and perhaps archive the inactive ones. Send me an email if you want more information. But we’re not planning on losing anything that is active.

Edit: I sent letter.

I want to ask more information, I could make it alone, but not want.
Anybody can help to formulate this letter, I'm not native English speaker.

I plan to add all admins to cc:
Most admins email is known for me. If somebody else from volunteers is interested in, please send me a PM.

The answer email will be posted for discussion under another post.

[henke54]

http://www.itworld.com/software/170521/ ... nofficeorg

Not that i agree/disagree with this statement from Brian Proffitt, but it makes 'sense' :

I think what will we see with OpenOffice.org is sort of what we are starting to see with Linux now, only on a far more drastic scale. Linux is the basis of some great distros (Fedora and Ubuntu), and platforms (Android), but the Linux brand itself seems to be fading a bit into the background. Similarly, OpenOffice.org will probably remain a vibrant open source community within the Apache Software Foundation, but it will only serve as a parent project to its derivatives, with the branded product getting very little use beyond hard-core users.

also notice the comment from Marbux on that article :

Seems here that if IBM really wanted to help the Apache OOo project and to advance the cause of open source software as it claims, it would contribute the code that avoids the Microsoft patents.

...

[Villeroy]

Pure speculation: Some day in the near future there will be a commercial IBM product and there will be LibreOffice. OpenOffice.org as we know it does fit to the Apache portfolio.

[RoryOF]

Off Topic: Does anyone remember the parlour game Russian Telegrams, where the players sit in a circle and each whispers the message into the ear of the next person? The message that comes out is usually utterly different from that which started! I don't know quite why this thread reminds me of playing "Russian Telegrams"...

[acknak]

Definitely, although I always knew it as "Whisper down the lane."

For my part, I do like that Apache seems to have well-established technology for handling projects, and they stick with it. I hope that means that the OOo web site(s) will migrate to a consistent and stable framework and leave the nasty patchwork behind.

More pure speculation:
I could very easily see Apache focusing on the core software and leaving the support, marketing and distribution to others.

[aqualung]

Chinese whispers!

If nothing else, this thread has been useful to find out about how many journalists are writing on open source on various websites. Some of them even know how to write

[acknak]

Despite my misgivings regarding the LibO project model, the new 3.4 release looks very nice: some silly stuff (shadows around the document pages?) and some rough edges, but all in all, lots of really good cleanup work and nice improvements going in there.

[RoryOF]

If nothing else, this thread has been useful to find out about how many journalists are writing on open source on various websites. Some of them even know how to write

Wouldn't it be interesting to know how many of them write using open source utilities?

[aqualung]

The one aspect that none of the journalists have covered -- but that interests me -- is the OpenOffice developers in Oracle. How many of them are there: 10? 20? 50?

No one seems to interview them, or they refuse interview requests. This could be because of German labor laws. In Germany, if you have been with a company for a number of years, you've got tenure. They can't let you go. Unless... you do something that your employer can construe as a firing offense. Giving an unauthorized interview could count as one.

I'd love to read a history of OpenOffice one day, from its beginnings as StarOffice (apparently, there was just one guy at first), the sale to Sun, the decision to go opensource, the sale to Oracle, ... it's been quite a journey.

[therabi]

The one aspect that none of the journalists have covered -- but that interests me -- is the OpenOffice developers in Oracle. How many of them are there: 10? 20? 50?

From what I has seen in the ASF mailing list, none of the Oracle programmers will be joining the project once it moves. Most will be provided by IBM to start with.

[vea1083]

I am reading the comments and there's a lot of discussion in terms of code licensing, can anyone in this forum expand on that? (copyleft vs. LGPLv3)

Thanks!

[therabi]

My understanding, someone else may have better info, is that copyleft is the same as LGPLv3. The discussions in the ASF list is about Apache License 2 and the dual ML/LGPL that LiberOffice uses. It seems that the AL2 licensed code can be used by LibO but the ML/LGPL licensed code of in LibO can not be used by the new OOo. Also the LGPL requires that you give back to the code where AL2 has no such requirement.

There is also discussions about 'third party' code that may have to be rewritten to fall under the AL2 license.

Hope that helps some.

[vea1083]

Well at least that clears out some of the issue. As for acknak comments on the possibility of apache only taking care of the "core code" of OOo Rob Weir replied to my question whether OOo will continue to be released on Windows, Mac and Linux distribution, he stated that Apache plans to release Apache OpenOffice in all the current platforms as OOo. At least that's a good indication.

[aqualung]

Well at least that clears out some of the issue. As for acknak comments on the possibility of apache only taking care of the "core code" of OOo Rob Weir replied to my question whether OOo will continue to be released on Windows, Mac and Linux distribution, he stated that Apache plans to release Apache OpenOffice in all the current platforms as OOo. At least that's a good indication.

Well, that's good news. I had been seeing indications that TDF was losing interest in devoting equal resources to the Windows and Mac platforms, due to the commercial interests behind TDF focusing on Linux (not to mention the ideological affinities of many members). This development, if it materialized, risked to paradoxically alienate more than 90 percent of the user base.

Windows and Mac users, not only those using LibreOffice / OpenOffice but also the MS Office users concerned about price gouging from Microsoft made possible by lessened competition, can now breathe easier.

Also, my initial guess that Oracle had simply "parked" OpenOffice with the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) to save face, by not having to donate to TDF themselves, is turning out to be wrong. ASF is serious about taking on OpenOffice as an incubator proposal and has no intentions to serve as a figleaf or strawman. I am also very impressed by the poise of maturity of Greg Stein and Jim Jagielski, who do a good job of explaining what ASF is about and engaging with "the community".

This situation, with all its intrigue and drama, is a good opportunity to learn about open source and the raging egos and commercial interests determining its course. For me, this discussion is not so much a case of "Chinese whispers" but an example of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. Each of us has only got hold of a tusk, a leg, or the trunk, but by pooling our impressions a clearer picture emerges.

[vea1083]

I am also very impressed by the poise of maturity of Greg Stein and Jim Jagielski, who do a good job of explaining what ASF is about and engaging with "the community".

They and Rob Weir, are also betting on the success of Apache OpenOffice because of the "diversity of the community", which to Rob goes as far as stating that "diversity" is what the TDF lacks. The last remark brought a serious exchange between Rob Weir and Italo Vignoli the head of the TDF.

[aqualung]

The one aspect that none of the journalists have covered -- but that interests me -- is the OpenOffice developers in Oracle. How many of them are there: 10? 20? 50?

From what I has seen in the ASF mailing list, none of the Oracle programmers will be joining the project once it moves. Most will be provided by IBM to start with.

All my guesses were too low:

Oracle's decision appears to be simply that, after a year of evaluation, the profit to be made from developing Oracle Open Office and Oracle Cloud Office did not justify the salaries of over 100 senior developers working on them both. Source

If the average annual salary of a developer is $50,000... times 100... then it's no wonder that Oracle "has now stood down all the staff it had working on the project", as the article says. That's going to be quite a challenge for Oracle's Human Resources department to find alternative assignments for all these people. On the other hand, $5 million, or even $15 million, was a small sum of money for the satisfaction of dampening Microsoft's profit by perhaps $1 billion dollars! (Does anyone know how many people are employed by Microsoft's Office division... plus the number of people in its usability labs etc.?)

What this tells me is that TDF is woefully understaffed and underfunded. That they claim to have 200 contributors is not meaningful unless there is a translation to full-time developer equivalent. (Arguably even Oracle's OpenOffice was understaffed, as some of the oldest bugs went eight years without ever being fixed.)

It remains to be seen how many resources will be brought to bear on the OO project in ASF now. IBM, the inital heavyweight in the project, apparently has an entire unit of developers in China working on IBM Lotus Symphony. Will they turn over that resource to the OO/ASF project now?

[henke54]

If nothing else, this thread has been useful to find out about how many journalists are writing on open source on various websites. Some of them even know how to write

Wouldn't it be interesting to know how many of them write using open source utilities?

Maybe offtopic, but here is some good site about that : http://lxer.com/

[henke54]

Groklaw : CLA Redux - The Donation of OpenOffice to the Apache Foundation :
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor ... 0314010442

[aqualung]

Groklaw : CLA Redux - The Donation of OpenOffice to the Apache Foundation :
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor ... 0314010442

Not a bad write-up, thanks for posting. (I skipped the comments; the number of mummified corpses of Groklaw comments thread readers still stuck in front of their computers is legion.)

[OlivierR]

Lively discussion on future of LibreOffice going on at their blog. Italo Vignoli, one of the most senior people in The Document Foundation (the organizational framework coordinating the LibreOffice project), says:

The community will never be based in a single office, will never be able to work the same hours, will not be able to pay for expensive and proprietary Microsoft tools to build the Windows version of the software, and so on.

It seems that my worries about Windows falling by the wayside are being realized. From the perspective of the companies who control the project through paying for developers (and also contributing money), this makes sense, as they are all Linux-centric. (Yes, there is money to be made in the Linux ecosystem.)

For the people running LibreOffice under Windows, this is not so good.

What I read several months ago was a plan to compile LibO with open source softwares only on Windows and drop as much as possible proprietary softwares. That's a big difference. Would they have worked that much on the Windows installer if they wanted to drop the Windows version ? It doesn’t sound logical, and they would loose a lot of users and supporters if they do that.

[Villeroy]

When I read topics like Can't open MS Word documents under OOoI get a strong feeling that all Windows support should be canceled immediately due to usability problems.
This is the year 2011 and far too many Windows users suffer from total mental blackout when it comes to file formats, file name extensions, icons and applications (.exe, .com, .bat). Since 1995 the whole Windows desktop environment relies on file name extensions while these extensions are hidden by default. Almost every week we read about OOo converting/invalidating "all my files" by mere installation.

[Ed2]

When I read topics like Can't open MS Word documents under OOoI get a strong feeling that all Windows support should be canceled immediately due to usability problems.
This is the year 2011 and far too many Windows users suffer from total mental blackout when it comes to file formats, file name extensions, icons and applications (.exe, .com, .bat). Since 1995 the whole Windows desktop environment relies on file name extensions while these extensions are hidden by default. Almost every week we read about OOo converting/invalidating "all my files" by mere installation.

First of all, if you deny all Windows users the ability to use OOo or LO, what would you suggest they use instead?

Secondly, you what would you hope to achieve by excluding the vast majority of the world's computer users?

What are the usability problems you cite? In any case users currently have the choice of using the product in spite of whatever "problems" you perceive it to have or not use it if they don't want to. How would doing nothing other than denying the entire user base one of those two options help anyone?

Can you please try to be constructive, and not do anything destructive like denying vast numbers of users the ability to use the product for no reason.